Terrible pain in all the diodes down my left side.

[kiya]

So I was reading this post in dot_cattiness (it's a locked post, so don't bother if you're not on the community).

Yeah, I suppose it's fair to say catty things about someone who's not dealing with their depression well, if that person is attached to their disorders -- gods know I did that back with the crazy ex, who I strongly suspect of being bipolar, who also refused to consider that he might have a problem and had an apparent phobia of psychological or psychiatric treatment.

I can't deal well with seeing it called a "disability", and that's with the scare quotes there. I don't know how to explain to someone who does it the stuff that comes with this shit. I can't see the "disability" snark as being anything other than contempt, possibly for the whole range of people who have disabling psychological disorders. Certainly for those who actually gasp admit that they have a problem that gets in the way of having their lives.

I started to write a reply to the post -- well, not to the post, but to the comment that had the "disability" line in it. Link to the alt.support.depression FAQ, point out that depression is a real disability that affects real people and this sort of insinuation about the moral rectitude of those people who have days when they just can't get out of the fucking cycle is counterproductive. . . .

Couldn't do it. I'm too depressed these days -- I don't have the emotional fortitude to expose myself to that sort of contempt, that sort of ignorance, that cavalier dismissal of what can be a serious problem -- certainly there are plenty of people who are worse off than I. If I had the strength, I would argue, I would point out this ignorance, I would say that this is the sort of attitude that prevents people from getting help, because they have evidence that nobody will think that their problem is real rather than a moral failing.

I can't do it. Not today. Not this month. I don't have the strength to start an argument, and I know that it'll come down to an argument if I try.

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I hear you. I wish there were something I could tell you that would help, but I can tell you I hear, and understand, and agree.

*gentle hug*
A.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I hear you. I got the same feeling at a few of these recent posts. I'm thinking of unsubscribing. It's become more of a "dot contempt" than dot cattieness of late. Not to mention the fact that I *know* a few of the targets there. That really hurts.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I had much the same reaction that you did, although for slightly different reasons. I was bugged by it too, because I've been there. Really recently, actually. But I didn't, mainly because, well, to me, it would feel too much like complaining because someone's being catty on dot cattiness. But still. I get really, really fucked up depressed, and I'm dealing with it through a combination of drugs, therapy, and experimental treatments. It works, sorta, mostly.

There are times when someone really does need to give me a only-slightly-figurative kick in the ass to get me out of the patterns I'm in. And I've had people (who care about me) be harsh, sarcastic, and, yes, catty to me in such ways that it helps me to get out of depression. But that's people who know me, who know what depression is, and who are doing it to my face and for me.

The comment on dot cattiness was just . . . cluelessly mean. Not the original post, which was catty and all -- but the followup which you're talking about was just just egregious.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Er.. um... oops. My apologies, sincerely, to both of you. I hadn't meant to imply that depression was a minor problem to be shrugged off. I don't for a minute believe that it is. I don't have any evidence whatsoever that the person I was being catty about is depressed in the clinical sense. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "depressed" in the original post.

I do apologize.

If you have the energy, please educate me a bit more about how I could have done that better.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Wanted to apologize in a reply to you directly, also, as well as in my reply to xiphias's comment. When I said "disability" in that snarky way, I meant his sleep schedule. If he's clinically depressed, that's a whole nother ball of wax. I didn't mean to be trivializing that in the slightest. My most sincere apologies.

I can go back and delete the comment if you like... though it wouldn't delete the follow-ups.

Dang. I hate it when I say things that come out so hurtful. I really didn't intend it. I'm sorry.

[kiya]

Thank you for your apology. I'm . . . well, a little bowled over, I guess. ;}

There's a . . . lot of . . . (pardon, linguistic functions go down real easy these days) . . . shit out there about depression, about "just get over it", about how it's not a real problem that can't be fixed by Being Of Sufficient Moral Rectitude. It sounds to me like the person you were talking about probably is depressive, and probably isn't dealing with it well. I can understand being frustrated with not dealing with it well . . . because I've been on both sides of that, and goddamn, does it drive me nuts.

(Dozens of things I could and should be doing, and I'm sleeping ten, eleven, twelve hours because the more I sleep, the less of the day I have to actually deal with. Nervous breakdown on trying to make an appointment -- that I made, mind, but not without a complete mental meltdown on the way. Though hey, it's not as bad as it gets. I'm not sleeping eighteen to twenty hours this go around, probably because I'm taking my vitamins.)

I don't know. I wouldn't ask for the comment to be removed, myself; I don't know that that would . . . fix anything? I guess I'd appreciate a clarification or some such, over there, if you feel a need to do something.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your apology. I'm . . . well, a little bowled over, I guess. ;}

I hope that's a good thing. :-)

...about how it's not a real problem that can't be fixed by Being Of Sufficient Moral Rectitude.

Yech. That kind of attitude must be half again as painful as the original depression is. I wonder if some of that attitude comes because the visible symptoms don't show the depth of the pain?

It's interesting that you say he probably IS depressive. I have had moments where I've wondered, but I'm definitely no qualified professional, and he insists he's not. Hrm. (Given that, what's a good way for me to deal with that? If he isn't, ok, I just need to set good boundaries and not make any agreements with him that he won't keep. But is there any way to be genuinely helpful if he is?)

I guess I'd appreciate a clarification or some such, over there, if you feel a need to do something.

I'd like to do something. I ran across your journal entry purely by chance. If someone else had the same reaction, I may not know it. I'll head over there and post a comment.

I'm really glad you were still online, and that you responded to this. I felt AWFUL once I read what you wrote, and I can certainly see why you wrote it (good for you). So I'm glad you got to read that I was just being stupidly unclear instead of being a complete asshole. Thanks. :-J

[kiya]

Heh -- I'm just speaking as someone who can say, "Yeah, that looks like a place I've been." But I don't even have a formal diagnosis of depression -- though as I was released from college on medical leave for an unspecified psychological disorder, have one parent on Prozac, a sibling on Zoloft, and my other parent probably untreated these days (in and out of talk therapy), I think it's probably a good guess. . . :P

Hrm. As to being helpful. . . I think psych stuff is quirky, and it's hard to tell what will break through it. (Mine is much less severe when I take a B-vitamin complex, but not all depressives respond to that. I also find that if I can get started on something, I can often assemble momentum; I'm much better at doing a thing someone has asked me for than I am at motivating myself. I have two emotions that can pierce the haze and sometimes give me a way to claw out; unfortunately, both rage and lust are limited applicability states of mind.) I'd suggest, if you want, poking through the the alt.support.depression FAQ to see if anything comes to mind.

The Sufficient Moral Rectitude thing, I think, is one of the reasons that a lot of people with psychiatric disorders insist they don't have a problem, that there's nothing wrong with them; the stigma of being identified with a psychological disorder can be very large. And even if they get a diagnosis without getting slammed, it's an invisible disability, like a learning disability; there will be people who respond as if that person is slacking off, deliberately making mistakes, trying to be difficult. As elynne posted in the comment below, it's the "throw the person in cold water and tell them to stop being self-centered" approach, which is not notably effective in addressing problems of brain chemistry.

Uh. I hope that gives you a useful place to start processing.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Er, yeah, does sound like a pretty good guess... I don't know what to say except I hope your battle with it gets easier as time goes on.

Thanks for the link to the FAQ; I'll go browse there. And thanks for the descriptions of how you deal with things. The paragraph about sleep sounds eerily familiar. Maybe this problem IS a lot bigger than just staying up late and not feeling like getting up. (Dang, it's still frustrating from my side of things, though.)

...it's the "throw the person in cold water and tell them to stop being self-centered" approach, which is not notably effective in addressing problems of brain chemistry.

Yeah, I figure if that were an effective approach, no one would be depressed any more; SOMEbody SOMEwhere would have shook 'em and told 'em to shape up, and poof! they'd be Cured. Uh huh. Riiiight.

By the way, total change of topic, I love the userpic of you where you've got a snake twining round your wrist.

[kiya]

You think it's frustrating from your end, try it from this side. ;) There are days when it feels like a grand accomplishment to run the dishwasher.

Isn't he a gorgeous snakie? That picture's from about a year ago; he's about the length of my arm now, and as big around at his thickest as . . . hm. The circle from thumb to forefinger is about right. He's a royal python (also called a ball python, mostly in the States) and his name is Kundalini. He's my pretty baby. :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

More reading of the FAQ has, unfortunately, left me more confused. It stresses change: activities previously enjoyed, sleeping more than usual. I think he was born with this ability to completely hose his sleep schedule. Also, it does seem like a natural amount of sleep for the circumstances: stayed up from Friday morning around ten all the way through Saturday evening and quite possibly until three or four in the morning Sunday, then got frustrated and mopey when that meant crash-like-a-rock on Sunday. So I just don't know. Of course, not knowing is probably best. Going around firmly diagnosing one's friends doesn't often lead to best friendship behavior anyhow.

Kundalini is gorrrgeous. And he's curled in a particularly artistic way in that photo. :) What does he eat? Bugs mainly, or is he big enough to eat small rodents? I would love to have a snake, and would be happy to buy food-bugs, but mice would probably be beyond my ability.

[autumnesquirrel.livejournal.com]

As far as I know depression can also manifest with extreme insomnia, so who knows. The main thing I've noticed in people I've known who were depressed was a lack of energy in a slightly more general sense. Things they had previously enjoyed they no longer had the energy or interest to put into. Daily activities became challenging. More a lack of emotional energy than necessarily a lack of physical energy.

If he is depressed or not matters only in a general sense anyway. If he is your being his friend will likely help more than your trying to fix things or shock him out of his behavior. If he's not and things you've said haven't helped yet they're not likely to. My Mom has been after me for years to lose weight. I usually eat more after talking to her, and crave fatty foods when I'm around her. Perhaps you should ask him if there is anything you can do to help?

The lovely snake eats frozen small rodents.

[kiya]

I don't know from previously; as far as I know I was born depressive. (I have a very clear memory from the age of eighteen where I felt good, and was struck with the sudden revelation: maybe this is what it's like to be normal. I've found the depression hasn't been so bad since then, if only because I have a memory of being, for a couple of days, free of it.) I have periods when the thing is more severe, more present, more disruptive, so that might be it; I don't know. (I get both insomnia and hypersomnia symptoms, sometimes intricately intertwined, which makes it even more confounding.)

Kunda's species lives on gerbils in the wild; he's captive-bred, and was raised on mice. I order them on the web and keep a box of them in the freezer; when I got him he was only big enough to eat juvenile mice, but these days he's eating full-grown ones. (The rule of thumb is 'don't feed the snake anything wider than it is at its widest point'.) I don't know off the top of my head the names of any insectivorous snakes; I believe all three of the recommended "starter" snakes eat rodents. (Corn snakes, captive-bred ball pythons, king snakes.)

Kevin keeps fish, so we occasionally go to pet stores to ogle the fishies. I was looking at the reptiles and saw an enclosure full of royals, and found them utterly gorgeous. So I wound up getting one, which was cool; I've wanted a snake since I was a kid. (Some people read Stranger in a Strange Land and find their way to polyamory. I read SIASL and decided I wanted a snake.)

[rosefox]

I read SIASL and decided that I wanted to look at Rodin sculpture, know what grass was thinking when I walked on it, and sleep on the floor.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

First off, I'm not disagreeing with you at all when you said, "And even if they get a diagnosis without getting slammed, it's an invisible disability, like a learning disability; there will be people who respond as if that person is slacking off, deliberately making mistakes, trying to be difficult. As elynne posted in the comment below, it's the 'throw the person in cold water and tell them to stop being self-centered' approach, which is not notably effective in addressing problems of brain chemistry."

The circumstances you describe, sadly, do exist in large numbers. There also seems to exist a different group of folks who do qualify as painfully self-centered and manipulative. Folks who, if someone tries to call them on their lack of activity, will cry "Depression!" the way the little boy cried "Wolf!" in an attempt to deflect responsibility from themselves for their actions.

I don't know how to distinguish easily between the two groups of folks except by lots of observation. One of the elements that becomes noticeable over time is that the symptoms of depression in the second group seem to appear or vanish at convenience.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

I have been diagnosed with and treated for clinical depression. I have been on both sides of this particular fence.

I don't know how to distinguish easily between the two groups of folks except by lots of observation. One of the elements that becomes noticeable over time is that the symptoms of depression in the second group seem to appear or vanish at convenience.

This is probably as good a criteria as any. It's tough.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

If he isn't, ok, I just need to set good boundaries and not make any agreements with him that he won't keep. But is there any way to be genuinely helpful if he is?)

My experience, both with my own depression and my husband's, was that no power on this earth would make either of us get professional help till we were good and ready, and the more people tried to tell us to do it, the more determined we became not to. I think the best thing anyone around us could have done was to set good boundaries anyway. I've found that when deciding where to place my own boundaries with regard to my husband's depression, it helps if I ask myself where I would place them if he had a suspected physical illness rather than a mental one.

[jenett]

I have to say that this way lies reasonable sanity.

(liliaren and I share the aforementioned crazy ex. My bet is on borderline personality disorder, which is also cross-linked with both depression and bipolar stuff.)

While I ended up ending the relationship anyway (because he, erm, was getting less and less interested in a relationship with me, was refusing to commit to *one* hour of undistracted time talking to me a week, and some other issues), setting boundaries did help for a while - the "Look. We've gone over this particular discussion a bunch of times already. I don't feel like I can do any good here. I'm going to go off and do X. If you want to talk to me later, come find me."

With my husband (who's got actual diagnosed depression stuff in his past), we've got an agreement that if *I* think I can't cope with it (not, actually, that this has been a huge problem since we got seriously involved), then he will go to appointments if I make them and take him to them. (i.e. minimal setup on his part - all he has to do is get in the car). This makes me feel better about the potential of further problems.

I think there isn't an awful lot of information/support out there for partners of people who are trying to figure out how to deal with these things. I do know from experience that it was very easy to feel like I *should* be more understanding and helpful, because I was the one who was otherwise coping with life fairly well. But that way *can* lie real damage too, which is why the boundaries part is so important.

[cheshyre]

I think there isn't an awful lot of information/support out there for partners of people who are trying to figure out how to deal with these things.

There is a published book called How you can survive when they're depressed. I haven't read it all the way thru yet, but it is out there.

I sometimes wish there was an equivalent to AlAnon for the families of depressed people as a support group to help us cope. It's a difficult subject to talk about with folks who haven't been there.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

I've found that when deciding where to place my own boundaries with regard to my husband's depression, it helps if I ask myself where I would place them if he had a suspected physical illness rather than a mental one.

Mmmm, good idea. I will have to file that away.

[meranthi.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you say he probably IS depressive. I have had moments where I've wondered, but I'm definitely no qualified professional, and he insists he's not.

Back when I dropped out of school, I was not dealing with my drpression at all well. Actually, I wasn't dealing with it at all. Afterwards, I lost my job and then spent the next three months staying up until 6 or 7 am, not doing anything but staring at the ceiling and moping, generally feeling completely worthless. My parents were very worried and kept calling (like every two days), and sending me useful things like St. John's Wort. Which since I "wasn't depressed" wouldn't do anything. I'm not entirely certain what pulled me out.

From my own experience, depression is one of those awful illnesses which creeps up and stabs you in the back. I never admitted that I was depressed until after I was mostly over it. I just made lots of people very worried for me. If your friend has depression, it's unlikely he wants to face it. Most people don't. Unfortunately, there probably isn't much you'll be able to do about it. If you can get him to see that there is a problem, that's great, but I wouldn't push it. Everytime anyone mentioned the word depression around me, I turned the rest of that conversationo ff in my mind...

[elynne.livejournal.com]

One of my housemates rented "Girl, Interrupted" recently, which stars Wynona Rider (or Winona Ryder?) and Angelina Jolie as teenageish girls in a mental institution. I'd remembered it being an annoying movie, for a lot of reasons - not actually offensive, but annoying in a "Lookit me! I'm talking about mental stuff, I'm so deep! Let me read you some of my poetry!" way. It strove so hard to be meaningful and insightful, and instead came off very superficially.

I was in the living room while she watched it, until it got to the scene where Wynona has been on a severe depressive jag for a while (it's implied several days, maybe a week or more), has been sleeping all day, doesn't get out of bed - and Whoopi Goldberg's character picks her up, takes her to the bathroom, and tosses her in a cold bath. And when Wynona bitches, Whoopi tells her "There's nothing wrong with you, except that you're lazy and (selfish?), stop feeling sorry for yourself" and some similar things.

At which point I realized that I FUCKING HATE THAT MOVIE.

There's nothing wrong with me that a toss in cold bathwater and a good verbal work-over wouldn't fix. After all, I'm just lazy and feeling sorry for myself. There's nothing "really" wrong with me.

... RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH.

FWIW

[boojum.livejournal.com]

It's been a few years since I've read the book the movie was based on, but I remember enjoying it. It was good in that somewhat unnerving way {books which suck you in to the mind of their main character, who's messed up} are. (Braces for structural clarification.)