One of those thinky thoughts....

[kiya]

I was reading the posts sparked off by the Elizabeth Moon thing, or at least the ones that deepad collected here, and had this thought while reading this one.

From the post:

Whether a group changes its core behaviors and values after immigration or not, it must--to be assimilated later--come to understand the culture into which it has moved. To get along, it must try not to do those things which will, sure as eggs is eggs, create friction, distrust, and dislike. (Emphasis mine)



Hear that? If you're different, stop it. Do your level best to be the same as everybody else.

So we have a science fiction writer, active enough in the community thereof to get a GOH invitation to a major con, extolling the virtues of conformity.

Gee, I hope she has never been treated poorly for reading that sci-fi stuff. Because, you know, in some times and places, that kind of behaviour creates friction, distrust, and dislike.

But I can hear it now: oh, that's different! Those are just things bullies did!

Yes. Those are the things bullies do.

But it's not so different, really.

The inability of people to extrapolate both amazes and depresses me.


(Posted here because honestly it would be a derail from any of the excellent posts about actual experience with immigration, assimilation, racism, living as a Muslim, and other actually relevant comments on the whole thing. Those are better reading than a brief moment of mocking the hypocrite.)

Comments

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Hm.

I don't see that as being as extreme as you, I think.

There are things that other cultures do that engender distrust and dislike in our culture that we really don't want people who are in our country to do-- think about, oh, say, female genital mutilation or stoning adulteresses to death while letting the men they slept with go free, or, I dunno, eating dogs or cats or guinea pigs (or other animals we consider pets in the US).

These are things that happen with some regularity in other countries that, if a citizen of that country moves here, would cause some pretty serious friction and engender dislike and so on in a community in the US.

You can certainly be a Muslim in the US without demanding to stone women to death. In fact, in order to live in the US, I'd say that even the most vehement hypothetical Muslim is going to have to NOT stone women to death. He can face Mecca to pray all he likes, but not murder people.

I think some of why her statement sounds as extreme as it does is that for a lot of the US, things that engender distrust and dislike have gotten pretty innocuous-- praying to Allah is likely to engender distrust and so on if observed by an intolerant American. In that case, yeah-- it does become a case of "stop being different!"

I think she says it there herself-- "Whether a group changes its core behaviors and values after immigration or not, it must--to be assimilated later--come to understand the culture into which it has moved." I don't think that's an endorsement of conformity at all.

[beloitst.livejournal.com]

I have to agree here...lacking context, she isn't saying the group SHOULD assimilate, but rather, if it is going to assimilate, then it must not do the things that would prevent it from assimilating.

[thene]

The context isn't simply about 'not doing things' but includes her saying that all American Muslims should personally speak out about 9/11: A group must grasp that if its non-immigrant members somewhere else are causing people a lot of grief (hijacking planes and cruise ships, blowing up embassies, etc.) it is going to have a harder row to hoe for awhile, and it would be prudent (another citizenly virtue) to a) speak out against such things without making excuses for them and b) otherwise avoid doing those things likely to cause offence.

(Note that she does not hold that the same does not apply vis a vis Americans and their waging of pointless wars; America is, like, some kind of water she expects everything else to dissolve into, IDK.)

[thene]

[I mangled that; meant to say 'she does not hold that the same applies', sorry]

[kiya]

In the context of a post that incuded claims that Muslims are basically unfit for citizenship, that is a very generous reading.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you didn't quote or mention THAT part. 8)