Martian Anthropology is Killing Me

[kiya]

Not that I think I need a reality check on this one, but does this paragraph strike anyone as obviously implausible?

I have known men who didn't bother to consider whether or not someone was sexually attractive to them before that person brought the question up, because they were enjoying that person's company too much. I have known men who continued with relationships in which sex was not an option for medical reasons because they actually loved their wives, not just their wives' genitalia. I have known men whose capacity for attraction was limited to one satisfying relationship, who simply did not register other people as attractive when partnered. I have known men who turned women down who approached them, even though both were available, and still somehow managed to maintain friendships with those selfsame women. I have known stable mixed-sex groups of people that somehow manage not to degenerate into raving sexual tension. I have known men who looked at open relationships and said, "You know, that's just too much effort." I have an ex whose given reason for breaking up with me was that I was too interested in sex and not enough interested in things that fed his sense of relationship; I have another ex whose sex drive was much lower than mine; I have another ex who ended the relationship when he realised that he was treating me as a sex object because he thought that that was a disgustingly neanderthal attitude to take. I know men who complain about the social presumption that they're primarily interested in sex or ruled by their libidos because they find it as derogatory and disgustingly sexist as I do. I know a man who was never taken seriously when he was raped by a woman because people just figured, hey, men are happy to get laid, why's he so upset about that silly 'consent' thing?

Comments

[ardaniel]

Not me, and I've been pondering it lately, since Thankgiving around here commemorates Awkward Sexual Tension, because Wedge came to visit in 2003 over that weekend and I was crushing in ten zillion ways, and he, while considering me perfectly well attractive and whatnot, was totally in the "she is not available, thus I am uninterested in that sort of thing" place. ;)

[kiya]

Minor context for this: I posted the above paragraph elsewhere and got called a liar.

[larksdream]

Oh, okay. For a minute there I was deeply and vastly confused. So in actuality, "I" is you? That makes so much more sense. I thought you were posting that the paragraph made no sense TO you.

[larksdream]

Oh, and be glad they only called you a liar, and not "too easily fooled to see the real truth that these sneaky men have been hiding by pretending to be human, but there there dear, when you have more experience of the world you'll understand". I get the latter a lot.

[kiya]

No, that was the context in which I posted it in the first place.

[elf]

I tells ya, I keep looking for these men who always want sex, who would never say no to a consenting female, who are incapable of meeting another female without considering what she'd be like in the sack, and how cool it would be to have two at once, and so on. (Or at least, I keep looking for the reasonably attractive & intelligent ones; I may be limiting my search by too many restrictive criteria.)

It's kinda like those drug-induced demon-worshipping orgies they keep telling me are all over the place in Paganism: apparently, someone's doing a damn good job of hiding them. I don't know where those fundie Christians are looking, but I sure can't see 'em from here. And I don't know who those feminazi-types are talking to, but they haven't sent them in my direction, dammit.

[kiya]

What a perfect icon in context.

[elf]

I find damn few opportunities to use this icon. I keep thinking I want to animate it--make the tentacles move--but that's a bit beyond my computer art skills. (I could do it; it'd take me 20 or 30 hours altogether. Pixel-by-pixel editing is not fun.)

It's become my "weird sex stuff" icon. And occasionally just "weird stuff," but that usually gets the Pineal Antennae icon.

[larksdream]

I keep looking for the reasonably attractive & intelligent ones; I may be limiting my search by too many restrictive criteria.

Yeah, standards are a bitch. ;o)

[sunspiral.livejournal.com]

Clearly you haven't been to Arisia.

[ritaxis.livejournal.com]

I nthought that was what this was about. I've been in those conversations too. There's a certain mindset among certain men that wants to believe that all men everywhere and at all times are helpless automatons when it comes to sex, that they will get as much as they can of it in whatever context that they can get away with it in, and that nothing else matters to them. There's a certain mindset among certain women that wants to agree with this.

But the interesting thing to me is what do these men get out of embracing a worldview that divests them of reason, culture, the capacity for change, self-control, understanding, empathy, and the capacity to enjoy the company of half the human race? Why do they not think it is degrading to be seen as stereotyped and reflexive in their behavior as an insect? Or maybe they do, and they've got a thing for being degraded and insectile in their behavior. The only thing that I think it gives them is permission to not be deliberate or nuanced in their behavior, and where's the fun in that?

[kiya]

My current best guess is a form of perverse homophobia or machismo -- that if they were ever caught thinking of something other than sex if a woman is involved, someone, somewhere, might suggest that they're less than perfectly masculine.

[ruth-lawrence.livejournal.com]

..and that's very sad.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

The person who accused you of lying is ... ignorant. It all seems plausible to me.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, you being called a liar for that makes WAY more sense.

I was reading that and scratching my head with "what the hell is wrong with that? Why do you find it implausible? where's the punchline?"

I know guys like that too. my husband, f'ex.

I didn't think you were the type to think that was impossible!

Shad

[larksdream]

Uh... actually, no. I know people like that too.

[ashlupa.livejournal.com]

Not obviously so, no. Even if it sometimes seems like a very small percentage of men.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Uh, yeah, that all looks totally reasonable.

Where did you encounter people who didn't believe that?

[kiya]

boards.straightdope.com/sdmb

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

So maybe the men are only like that outside of Baltimore. ;) (Sorry, old SD in-joke.) Yeah, if that paragraph is your own description, it sounds like most of the guys I've known, including myself and my boyfriend. For congenital health reasons I won't go into, neither of us is very sexual - it's our girlfriend who we can't keep up with. ;)

I take it some folks could not believe there were men who didn't resemble the arrested adolescents they see on the sitcoms? Heh, it kinda reminds me of my ex's experience with her coworkers. I went cross-country to visit her and her husband, both good friends of mine from college, and she casually let it slip that her ex-boyfriend was coming up to see her. Her workmates were OUTRAGED!

And the bizarre thing is, they were mostly outraged on her behalf, that her husband wasn't even getting jealous that she was seeing "another man." One of them actually said, in nearly these words, "Don't you wish this made him even a little angry? Shouldn't you be that important to her?" Of course, the ultimate irony is that Beth is poly too, and already doing all sorts of things these people wouldn't understand. :)

And people wonder why guys act like adolescents. *sigh*

[lysana.livejournal.com]

My husband and I have people in the laundromat who are surprised he's helping me with the wash without having to be poked and prodded into it. And people ask why I don't think feminism is dead.

[brooksmoses]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=395716, to be specific.

[circuit-four.livejournal.com]

I really, really want to smack "mr. jp" with a rolled-up newspaper.

[kiya]

Well, it seems a sensical response to his "Men are dogs" position.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

I got to this post and sprained my brain.

Then I read the rest out of masochism.

Yeah, I'd say those guys are just trying to justify their own shallow attitudes, entitlement complexes, and lack of respect for women by insisting that the entirety of their sex is as disgusting as they are.

[tiger-spot.livejournal.com]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Somebody pass me a towel; I need to wipe off the slime.

[elf]

My husband is several of those men. It is occasionally no end of frustrating.

In fact, I have gathered that among sensible men--the ones who aren't "out for just one thing," who have a brain and appreciate a relationship... the question of sexual interest is likely to strike the female much, much sooner.

I think this comes from the constant fear of being raped, or being assaulted sexually. Or maybe the polite phrasing is "the need for constant awareness of the possibility" yada yada. We think "how far would I go with this person" early, and re-think it often. (Lemme know if I'm just speaking for me, here; I got the vague impression this is common for many women, but I could be totally skewed.) Men, not worrying about attacks when they go on first dates, don't have to consider that question... and so it may not occur to them at all, for quite a while.

I do feel sorry for women (and men, for that matter) who've never met any of the men you described above.

[kiya]

I know that I have frequently been much more sexually forward than I'm actually comfortable with as a means of preempting being pursued. Which is a really, really, really strange bit of brain damage, honestly, but is related to sexual assault.

So you're at least speaking of me too.

[elf]

I wasn't even thinking about being sexually forward--just about being *aware* of sex as a possibility at any point in "dating," and keeping mental tabs on "how far am I willing to go with this person?" as a background constant. "Am I interested" is almost a secondary issue, but it's also in there, because it helps answer the other question.

Every woman I've talked with about dating, men, relationships etc. does this to some extent. It was rather shocking to find out that some, maybe many, men don't.

[kiya]

The forwardness does derive from that sort of hyperawareness -- I find the whole question of potential sexual involvement much more stressful than actual established sexual involvement, so I used to present 'willing to go this far' as 'want to go this far right now'. So with the evaluation.

[wednesday]

Nope. Not at all. Not even close.

[labrys6.livejournal.com]

Sounds reasonable to me, I have known one or two men who would fit in one or two the above categories. Most of the men I have known would not feel comfortable ever saying they were having those issues---because of things like being told "Well, gawwwds, you must be gay to feel that way: real men just want to get laid ALL the time." But it all does sound perfectly plausible---I can identify with several of those statements myself, although female because there are those who think any being born under the sunsign Scorpio is a raging sexaholic.

[lupagreenwolf.livejournal.com]

Sounds like the majority of men in my life, including my mate. The problem with feminism is that while it works hard to dispel stereotypes about women, too often it supports stereotypes about men. Taylor and I have talked quite a bit about the harm that stereotypes do to men, and why it's NOT okay to put men into pigeonholes because of some bullshit "privilege". Not all men are raging sexist pigs, and they do have emotions, contrary to popular stereotypes.

[kiya]

Sadly, it was pretty much all men who were arguing for the 'men are ravening idiots' position. They were grievously offended that they weren't being agreed with.

[ailbhe]

It's much easier to live up to low standards.

As you may be aware, my husband is monogamous by choice, and I have been incapable of recreational sex for over two and a half years now. He doesn't appear to have gone insane, grown resentful, and I know he hasn't had time to cheat.

I also have no doubts about his sex drive. When I'm physically capable, he is, ah, well able to cope, shall we say. Yes, well able.

[beaq.livejournal.com]

These stereotypes have been bobbing around in the stew of popular culture for ages. They didn't originate with feminism; modern feminism, for the most part, combats stereotypes about all genders. It's silly to attribute this kind of puerile, sniggering man-hatred to the feminist cabal when it's hanging its ass right out there in full view in the knuckle-draggingest currents of the mainstream.

And, *man*, do those guys hate men.

I wonder if, beyond the thrill of trolling, they actually get some weird kind of validation out of having people (women, mostly) assuring them that men reeeeaally aren't like that.

[beaq.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's you who needs the reality check.

If I've ever had more than four words with a man whose primary and most urgent interest in me involved my bangability, that man was certainly polite enough not to let on. Many of them are clever enough to disguise it with weeks, months, or years of companionable affability. If what they really mostly wanted was sex, I'm either flattered or horrified that they were willing to wait so long without wandering off to more promising pastures.

[mindways]

Nope, not at all implausible.

[Goes and reads thread]

Gads. Assumptions of the "everybody else ticks like me / my friends" variety are running rampant there. Attempting to Speak Truth about 3 billion people based on (a self-organizing sample of perhaps several dozen) plus (the image projected by popular culture)? Uh...yeah.

[Hrm. Have more thoughts, but this discussion is world-readable, so I think I'm going to go sleep and avoid making decisions about posting certain personal datapoints while tired.]

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what you said.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

Nope, I've come across most of those.

[redbird]

Seems plausible to me. I know several of those men, as well as that sort of stable social group.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

No, I don't consider it at all implausible. But lots of people, women and men, seem to believe that their own experience constitutes the extent of humankind's experience.

[(Anonymous)]

Hmmmm...lessee...


I have known men who didn't bother to consider whether or not someone was sexually attractive to them before that person brought the question up, because they were enjoying that person's company too much.

yeah.

I have known men who continued with relationships in which sex was not an option for medical reasons because they actually loved their wives, not just their wives' genitalia.

I would, if I had to.

I have known men who turned women down who approached them, even though both were available, and still somehow managed to maintain friendships with those selfsame women. I have known stable mixed-sex groups of people that somehow manage not to degenerate into raving sexual tension. know men who complain about the social presumption that they're primarily interested in sex or ruled by their libidos because they find it as derogatory and disgustingly sexist as I do.

yeah- that works for me too. I even spent a period of time online some years ago debating that stereotype with Z Budapest and a group of her adherents (with admittedly mixed success).

and I have had my "masculinity" questioned (ironic when one thinks about it) when I've expressed such sentiments around other men.

so, I guess I'm not as much of an alien as I sometimes think, then.

But I must admit that I do have extended periods of time when I do subscribe to the "Men Suck" mentality, usually brought on by observing the behaviour of the male partners of women I know.

Sa Sekhem Sahu,
Tzeenj