This is a political post. Keep in mind that I don't like feeling political, I find feeling political to be a visceral response to a wrongness in the universe, feeling political is "Every Hetheru has an inner Sekhmet", it's not a mode I find natural or comfortable, so this may be incoherent and ranty in bits.
Since I'm being incoherent and ranty on the subject of sexuality, who knows, it may be incoherent, ranty, and not entirely safe for work. Probably won't be, but I haven't written it yet, so I'm making warning noises about the possibility.
Also, the random music selection is amusing me in a dark bitter chocolate sort of way.
Okay, enough disclaimer.
I wrote, at the end of last year in a locked post, something about the relationship I had with the concept of sex. Specifically, I traced some of the ways sex was taken away from me, from being my personal secret thing, my own private property, into something I could not, somehow, believe was mine, and how I've fought to reclaim it.
I had a long slow slide through depersonalisation starting in about junior high. I was a favored target of boys who wanted a sexual object to direct their frustrated and incoherent hostility at -- I am not at all sure that they knew what they wanted, other than something that a girl had, and the prestige and status that came of owning that girl's something. Their commentary was full of insinuations clearly meant to be overheard, commentary, stares and leers; only one grope, but that grope was followed immediately by me knocking the brat in question onto his ass, so they learned there were, at least, a few lines. They wore away, with their use of me as their object, at my ability to have my sexuality be my own; they were much clearer on what use they wanted to put it to than I was, and I could not readily hold on to it (especially in my state of insecurity in those years).
"Boys will be boys", I was told, then. I was a prize student, the school administration adored me for my precocious intelligence, but my sexuality was not to be protected. I was to expect that the boys would use it and use me however they fancied, so long as they kept outside of certain narrow lines -- I was never punished for hitting the one of them, at least, for defending those narrow borders.
I also learned that I risked, if I spent time with boys I actually got along with, the presumption that I was partnered with those boys -- with consequences if I made actual partnerships elsewhere. Association was sufficient to render me some sort of property, convey some sort of expectation of consent. Bits of this pattern, in the long run, led to the assault, which I'm only going to mention as part of the pattern: my sexuality was not mine, someone else had rights to it, and my consent was sidelined.
And back to boys will be boys, the baffling horror of my mother's response when I asked her if she knew why I wasn't speaking to the fellow who assaulted me, the shrugging, "I figured he forced himself on you", from which I fled in incomprehension, scrambling up the stairs and into my room in the knowledge that even my mother was uninterested in helping me protect my sexuality from outside claims. I had to do it myself, and I had no idea how.
At the same time as all this, I wound up more aware of surrounding culture that reinforced the notion that my sex could not be my own, in a huge variety of ways:
Women's sexuality and sexual attractiveness winds up portrayed as the default in saleable traits, the ultimate commodity, as one of the defaults of advertising: this will get you women! This is sexy like a woman! Women women women pretty shiny own one today.
A "real woman" is generally the sort of woman that is sexually attractive to the speaker, unlike all those other women, who are cheap plastic fakes or something. (Except when a "real woman" is the sort of woman who is politically attractive ... but the similarity in the treatment leaves me wondering about things like the fetishisation of political conformity.)
The clothing typically available to women is set to a certain set of approved body shapes, presumably the 'acceptable' ones, and women who don't suit have to work hard to find things that match their shape. (I'm aware that I suit a lot of 'conventionally attractive' standards, and I can't find pants that fit because my legs are too long. Meanwhile, I hear rumours that a number of manufacturers are going to phase out 'petite' sizings.)
There's been recent foofaraw here and there about the 'purity balls', those things where fathers make a public flaunting of their claims of ownership over their minor daughters' sexuality, their intent to protect that virginity until it gets handed over to a suitable other man. (I swear, if I ever run into someone in the real world who is in favor of these things, I'll probably recoil with a, "You approve of the public display of children's sexuality?!" Ahem. Anyway.)
Treatment of women's worth as being contingent on attractiveness in certain forms -- not just the whole finding pants that fit thing, but the acceptability of "trophy wives", the heavy pushing of cosmetic and minor medical treatment to "correct" minor defects, skin blemishes, or whatever. I get this general impression of a sense that I'm supposed to be insecure about my body, about my physical attractiveness, with that insecurity bolstered by the bizarre arbitrariness of clothing sizes, the difficulty of finding things that fit, the concern about minor blemishes or whether or not I shave my legs properly.
So anyway. Huge number of ways that women's sexuality and physicality (not entirely related, but not entirely unrelated either) gets treated as a public commodity to be traded and molded into the "correct" form, with proper obeisances to the popular wisdom about what women are like. With some fascinating physical cues and triggers (and don't ask me if I'm growing out my bangs, because setting aside the fact that I like them this way, they're armour against some stuff I went through with the boys when I was twelve, and I'm not prepared to expose myself to them again for all that they're most of a lifetime ago and probably hundreds of miles away -- that's the sort of weird shit in my head).
I couldn't comfortably deal with certain feminine gender markers until I started actively considering myself genderqueer. Too much stress about making those proper obeisances and conforming to the Real Woman Standard. Which gets back to the owning eye makeup and using it to paint patterns on my cheeks. (And now I want to get some cheap eye stuff and see about painting the tattoos I want on my skin with it because that sounds like it might produce some neat results that differ from the ones I get with sharpies.)
Subcultures aren't really much better about it. Different sets of triggers, different sets of behaviours, but the sense that one's personal stuff is the property of surrounding people remains. And I wind up feeling like a target, a lot of the time.
So I'm a nonmonogamous woman, which freaks out certain circles. My sexuality isn't owned by a single man, OMGWTFBBQ, from one side, and then the weird-ass "a woman who doesn't think she deserves monogamy has to have something wrong with her" from another (that from someone who appears to me to be so 'feminist' he berates and abuses women who don't want the sort of liberation he's working for). As if "deserves" was a useful approach to things.
(And we get into the questions of dealing with how to deal with someone whose reason for wanting something or being a certain way is because of damage they've suffered, which gets bloody complicated and painful. I see this come up in plurality communities a fair amount, in addition to the whole "But if someone only wants this because of the patriarchy/the abuse/the this, that, and the other, does that mean that 'this' is bad? If that person gets better, should that mean they stop doing 'this'?")
Pro-sex/anti-sex. I get called anti-sex for not lying about the motivations behind my relationships (because saying that I don't form partnerships primarily motivated by fucking is "anti-sex", apparently, or people don't know what "is about" actually means and throw it around like it's a trivial declaration). Or for not being interested in casual sex (especially casual sex with, oh, people like the person who thinks I should be interested in casual sex, because 'pro-sex' means 'no standards' or otherwise another manifestation as 'if you're not going to be called "repressed" you have to be willing to let your sexuality be my property'). As far as I can tell, 'anti-sex' is mostly 'you don't agree with my political fetishes' is mostly 'you won't fuck me, you frigid bitch, I thought you weren't monogamous'.
I don't even begin to know how to think about the BDSM weirdness I've seen, largely because I mostly live on the fringes there. The shock that people have at being decked by a submissive for being too forward, people thinking 'sub' means 'public property' or something. The confounding of 'submissive' with 'no personality or desires of their own', in response to which
non_doormat_sub was founded. The assumption that one kink comes with a complex of others, and offense given when someone is a sub who isn't a masochist, or into humiliation, or any of the other things that I've seen people go all irrational about.
I caught bits of the whole feminist blowjob frothing from discussions here and there, links in
riba_rambles, talking on
sexeteria recently, commentary from
pantryslut, and reading through the comments I find myself thinking that they're grounded in this essential belief that women's sexuality is owned by external forces again -- here it's been 'liberated' from the ownership of a specific man in order to be claimed as the property of the political action committee.
And yes, there's thought that's worth putting into the question of whether certain things in one's private space are influenced by broken stuff in the outside world. But even if things are, there's going back to the whole "But what do we do about it?" and I can't believe that subordinating women's sexuality to a political agenda is an improvement.
I'm not even a big fan of oral sex, and what I got out of following some of that was that it was a point at which people believed it was appropriate for me to be subordinate -- not to A Man, but to The Correct Ideology Of Interpersonal Relationships.
It comes back to my snarky "Majority opinion isn't my dom either" comment to
rmjwell a while back.
I've had to fight hard to get to a point where I had any confidence that my sexuality, my physicality, were mine in any meaningful way -- not just wrestling with damage from people, the weirdness of my culture, but the medical complications that took it away from me at times. I've had to deal with parts of my responses being rough on people around me, and finding the balance point between what I consider my intrinsic reactions and the comfort of others. I've had to work out what I like, what I don't like, what I'm willing to deal with for the sake of a relationship or in particular contexts, and how much of each of those things is good for me.
I've had to do the damn work. I'm still doing the damn work, though it's getting better as I've worked to decouple sex and fear and opening up and terror, as I've built based on who I am, damage and all, and kept building as I resolved parts of the damage.
Which leaves me in a slightly precarious place where this stuff is mine, I feel strongly about that, I mantle over it protectively and will defend it with my claws as need be, and I'm hyperaware of things that threaten it.
I've found the quiet sacred space where what I can do is share and act from the depths of my being, at least some of the time, the place where I can at least hear the beating of my own Black Heart. And that sacred space is not a place where people are welcome without invitation, without negotiation, without trust, no matter how political they feel about whether or not I'm behaving according to their ideologies about What Women Should Be Doing.
It's mine. And it's mine in a way that I feel the need to defend actively, because it's not secure enough for me to relax about it.
Mine, mine, mine.
Damnit.
Since I'm being incoherent and ranty on the subject of sexuality, who knows, it may be incoherent, ranty, and not entirely safe for work. Probably won't be, but I haven't written it yet, so I'm making warning noises about the possibility.
Also, the random music selection is amusing me in a dark bitter chocolate sort of way.
Okay, enough disclaimer.
I wrote, at the end of last year in a locked post, something about the relationship I had with the concept of sex. Specifically, I traced some of the ways sex was taken away from me, from being my personal secret thing, my own private property, into something I could not, somehow, believe was mine, and how I've fought to reclaim it.
I had a long slow slide through depersonalisation starting in about junior high. I was a favored target of boys who wanted a sexual object to direct their frustrated and incoherent hostility at -- I am not at all sure that they knew what they wanted, other than something that a girl had, and the prestige and status that came of owning that girl's something. Their commentary was full of insinuations clearly meant to be overheard, commentary, stares and leers; only one grope, but that grope was followed immediately by me knocking the brat in question onto his ass, so they learned there were, at least, a few lines. They wore away, with their use of me as their object, at my ability to have my sexuality be my own; they were much clearer on what use they wanted to put it to than I was, and I could not readily hold on to it (especially in my state of insecurity in those years).
"Boys will be boys", I was told, then. I was a prize student, the school administration adored me for my precocious intelligence, but my sexuality was not to be protected. I was to expect that the boys would use it and use me however they fancied, so long as they kept outside of certain narrow lines -- I was never punished for hitting the one of them, at least, for defending those narrow borders.
I also learned that I risked, if I spent time with boys I actually got along with, the presumption that I was partnered with those boys -- with consequences if I made actual partnerships elsewhere. Association was sufficient to render me some sort of property, convey some sort of expectation of consent. Bits of this pattern, in the long run, led to the assault, which I'm only going to mention as part of the pattern: my sexuality was not mine, someone else had rights to it, and my consent was sidelined.
And back to boys will be boys, the baffling horror of my mother's response when I asked her if she knew why I wasn't speaking to the fellow who assaulted me, the shrugging, "I figured he forced himself on you", from which I fled in incomprehension, scrambling up the stairs and into my room in the knowledge that even my mother was uninterested in helping me protect my sexuality from outside claims. I had to do it myself, and I had no idea how.
At the same time as all this, I wound up more aware of surrounding culture that reinforced the notion that my sex could not be my own, in a huge variety of ways:
Women's sexuality and sexual attractiveness winds up portrayed as the default in saleable traits, the ultimate commodity, as one of the defaults of advertising: this will get you women! This is sexy like a woman! Women women women pretty shiny own one today.
A "real woman" is generally the sort of woman that is sexually attractive to the speaker, unlike all those other women, who are cheap plastic fakes or something. (Except when a "real woman" is the sort of woman who is politically attractive ... but the similarity in the treatment leaves me wondering about things like the fetishisation of political conformity.)
The clothing typically available to women is set to a certain set of approved body shapes, presumably the 'acceptable' ones, and women who don't suit have to work hard to find things that match their shape. (I'm aware that I suit a lot of 'conventionally attractive' standards, and I can't find pants that fit because my legs are too long. Meanwhile, I hear rumours that a number of manufacturers are going to phase out 'petite' sizings.)
There's been recent foofaraw here and there about the 'purity balls', those things where fathers make a public flaunting of their claims of ownership over their minor daughters' sexuality, their intent to protect that virginity until it gets handed over to a suitable other man. (I swear, if I ever run into someone in the real world who is in favor of these things, I'll probably recoil with a, "You approve of the public display of children's sexuality?!" Ahem. Anyway.)
Treatment of women's worth as being contingent on attractiveness in certain forms -- not just the whole finding pants that fit thing, but the acceptability of "trophy wives", the heavy pushing of cosmetic and minor medical treatment to "correct" minor defects, skin blemishes, or whatever. I get this general impression of a sense that I'm supposed to be insecure about my body, about my physical attractiveness, with that insecurity bolstered by the bizarre arbitrariness of clothing sizes, the difficulty of finding things that fit, the concern about minor blemishes or whether or not I shave my legs properly.
So anyway. Huge number of ways that women's sexuality and physicality (not entirely related, but not entirely unrelated either) gets treated as a public commodity to be traded and molded into the "correct" form, with proper obeisances to the popular wisdom about what women are like. With some fascinating physical cues and triggers (and don't ask me if I'm growing out my bangs, because setting aside the fact that I like them this way, they're armour against some stuff I went through with the boys when I was twelve, and I'm not prepared to expose myself to them again for all that they're most of a lifetime ago and probably hundreds of miles away -- that's the sort of weird shit in my head).
I couldn't comfortably deal with certain feminine gender markers until I started actively considering myself genderqueer. Too much stress about making those proper obeisances and conforming to the Real Woman Standard. Which gets back to the owning eye makeup and using it to paint patterns on my cheeks. (And now I want to get some cheap eye stuff and see about painting the tattoos I want on my skin with it because that sounds like it might produce some neat results that differ from the ones I get with sharpies.)
Subcultures aren't really much better about it. Different sets of triggers, different sets of behaviours, but the sense that one's personal stuff is the property of surrounding people remains. And I wind up feeling like a target, a lot of the time.
So I'm a nonmonogamous woman, which freaks out certain circles. My sexuality isn't owned by a single man, OMGWTFBBQ, from one side, and then the weird-ass "a woman who doesn't think she deserves monogamy has to have something wrong with her" from another (that from someone who appears to me to be so 'feminist' he berates and abuses women who don't want the sort of liberation he's working for). As if "deserves" was a useful approach to things.
(And we get into the questions of dealing with how to deal with someone whose reason for wanting something or being a certain way is because of damage they've suffered, which gets bloody complicated and painful. I see this come up in plurality communities a fair amount, in addition to the whole "But if someone only wants this because of the patriarchy/the abuse/the this, that, and the other, does that mean that 'this' is bad? If that person gets better, should that mean they stop doing 'this'?")
Pro-sex/anti-sex. I get called anti-sex for not lying about the motivations behind my relationships (because saying that I don't form partnerships primarily motivated by fucking is "anti-sex", apparently, or people don't know what "is about" actually means and throw it around like it's a trivial declaration). Or for not being interested in casual sex (especially casual sex with, oh, people like the person who thinks I should be interested in casual sex, because 'pro-sex' means 'no standards' or otherwise another manifestation as 'if you're not going to be called "repressed" you have to be willing to let your sexuality be my property'). As far as I can tell, 'anti-sex' is mostly 'you don't agree with my political fetishes' is mostly 'you won't fuck me, you frigid bitch, I thought you weren't monogamous'.
I don't even begin to know how to think about the BDSM weirdness I've seen, largely because I mostly live on the fringes there. The shock that people have at being decked by a submissive for being too forward, people thinking 'sub' means 'public property' or something. The confounding of 'submissive' with 'no personality or desires of their own', in response to which
I caught bits of the whole feminist blowjob frothing from discussions here and there, links in
And yes, there's thought that's worth putting into the question of whether certain things in one's private space are influenced by broken stuff in the outside world. But even if things are, there's going back to the whole "But what do we do about it?" and I can't believe that subordinating women's sexuality to a political agenda is an improvement.
I'm not even a big fan of oral sex, and what I got out of following some of that was that it was a point at which people believed it was appropriate for me to be subordinate -- not to A Man, but to The Correct Ideology Of Interpersonal Relationships.
It comes back to my snarky "Majority opinion isn't my dom either" comment to
I've had to fight hard to get to a point where I had any confidence that my sexuality, my physicality, were mine in any meaningful way -- not just wrestling with damage from people, the weirdness of my culture, but the medical complications that took it away from me at times. I've had to deal with parts of my responses being rough on people around me, and finding the balance point between what I consider my intrinsic reactions and the comfort of others. I've had to work out what I like, what I don't like, what I'm willing to deal with for the sake of a relationship or in particular contexts, and how much of each of those things is good for me.
I've had to do the damn work. I'm still doing the damn work, though it's getting better as I've worked to decouple sex and fear and opening up and terror, as I've built based on who I am, damage and all, and kept building as I resolved parts of the damage.
Which leaves me in a slightly precarious place where this stuff is mine, I feel strongly about that, I mantle over it protectively and will defend it with my claws as need be, and I'm hyperaware of things that threaten it.
I've found the quiet sacred space where what I can do is share and act from the depths of my being, at least some of the time, the place where I can at least hear the beating of my own Black Heart. And that sacred space is not a place where people are welcome without invitation, without negotiation, without trust, no matter how political they feel about whether or not I'm behaving according to their ideologies about What Women Should Be Doing.
It's mine. And it's mine in a way that I feel the need to defend actively, because it's not secure enough for me to relax about it.
Mine, mine, mine.
Damnit.
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fwiw, I don't believe that was the original intent of the Post That Started It All.
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The number of things that were positively incandescent about the whole male-privilege-dominance-symbolism left me with a positive terror of what the comment threads look like when people get to discussing d/s.
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OTOH, this means that every woman who liked spanking was my secret buddy just b/c I was out and unapologetic about it. (Too bad they didn't ask me for more dates.)
I have to say that the sight and symbolism of male dominants sitting in their comfy chairs getting blowjobs from their female submissives still makes *my* skin crawl, speaking from experience (and in my experience, the plural is important too). But that's my issue, eh, and not one I choose to project all over someone else's relationship and sexual practice.
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http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2006/06/lets-talk-about-sex.html
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and then the weird-ass "a woman who doesn't think she deserves monogamy has to have something wrong with her" from another
yes. that. i think that's what my mom is trying to say to me re: poly. that if my partners Really Loved me, they would never want another, and would want to keep my sexuality All to Themselves -- and if i weren't broken (though she never says it) i would want them to keep it.
:/
n.
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From:
Part 1
I'm not sure how coherent some of the comments are, but I sort of felt a need to comment on something... Obviously I have a rather different perspective on these things though.
...traced some of the ways sex was taken away from me, from being my personal secret thing, my own private property, into something I could not, somehow, believe was mine, and how I've fought to reclaim it.
On the most important levels, I think this is the whole point. The societal struggle for control of sexuality is a struggle for control of belief, identity and mind. In some ways it can't be taken away because it's internal, but it can be so trodden upon and negative-reinforced that the associations tied to it are avoided and the whole concept becomes something to be avoided. Add to that the fairly broken societal-definitions people are taught and stir to produce all kinds of mess.
I was a favored target of boys who wanted ... to direct their frustrated and incoherent hostility ... -- I am not at all sure that they knew what they wanted, other than ... the prestige and status that came of owning ... something.
(statement clipped for purposes of generalization)
Without many of the specifics, that describes much of the power-play that boys (I think girls do it to, but just in a different way) of that age follow. I was also the subject of the more generalized form of it. I think the sexuality in that instance was just another add-in of something that they just didn't completely understand but felt that pre-adolescent need to gain dominance over, but that aspect of you wasn't completely understood either, so was more vulnerable to forcible (not alteration, not wear, combination of damage and scattering? Can't quite find the right word...)
They wore away, with their use of me as their object, at my ability to have my sexuality be my own; they were much clearer on what use they wanted to put it to than I was, and I could not readily hold on to it (especially in my state of insecurity in those years).
Territory. Sexuality, being very much an internal mental construct, entirely belongs to the person it is of. The repeated harassment/etc treaded into developing and somewhat undefended mental territory, with a large crowd of boisterous and false-confident youths forcing their way in, trying to plant flags and claim land, not entirely sure what to do with it but with vague intentions of deforesting, strip-mining for gold, and enslaving natives. Even fought off, some of the damage of the invasion still lingers. "Boys will be boys"
Not always, though I suspect that the school administration wouldn't have approved of that either...
As far as I can tell that's the stock "yeah, they're obnoxious, but we don't really care and everyone has to live through it because we don't really care to fix things so it doesn't happen" answer for lots of things.
...but my sexuality was not to be protected.
I suspect that is partially because to do so would mean that they would have to acknowledge that it existed, something that they didn't want to do. It's all a somewhat fraught area, and administrations still have no idea how to balance things (there was the news story at some point about a 6-year old boy being suspended from school for kissing an equivalent-aged girl. According to the news, he didn't even know what he had done wrong (it wasn't really explained to him). The girl wasn't included in the interview for the article, so no perspective for her was given, not that that's a surprise... Somewhere, there's a sensible balance of these things, but I suspect that it's unlikely to be found without society in general moving beyond vague pre-adolescence).
From:
Re: Part 1
Not always, though I suspect that the school administration wouldn't have approved of that either...
Girls, who are boys, who like boys to be girls, who do boys like they're girls, who do girls like they're boys always should be someone you really love ....
From:
Part2
I think that's back to the problem of Society in general being completely fucked up when it comes to these things. Vague association leading to implied sexual involvement pops up on lots of levels. Partially I think it's because people want to classify each other so that we can fit little pre-existing interaction molds and no actual social adaptation is required.
...the baffling horror of my mother's response when ...
Unfortunately I think that's as much a point of simply "the baffling horror of your mother's crazy". Responses like that are themselves constructed by people who on some level feel that that's just the way things happen and completely ignore that alternatives exist. It's quite similar to the origins of the problem, actually.
Women's sexuality and sexual attractiveness winds up portrayed as the default in saleable traits
Of course these are entirely different things, and the lumping them together for such purposes only serves to heighten the confusion even more.
A "real woman" is
Almost always an imaginary construct designed to be appealing to a base set of people as thing to be had or behavior-set to be emulated, depending on situation, sometimes both, bringing whole new levels of completely wrong.
unlike all those other women, who are cheap plastic fakes or something
I think you can buy those online now.
Typically I find that those women who attempt to model themselves after societally standard concepts of "real woman" actually move quite quickly into the "cheap plastic fake" category.
The clothing typically available to women is set to a certain set of approved body shapes, presumably the 'acceptable' ones, and women who don't suit have to work hard to find things that match their shape.
Not just women. I will note
... 'purity balls', those things where fathers make a public flaunting of their claims of ownership over their minor daughters' sexuality...
I know it's all sorts of wrong, but I now want to find one of these, dress up "nice and presentable" and stand out front passing out copies of Lolita like the standard Mormon pamphlet-pushers.
I get this general impression of a sense that I'm supposed to be insecure about my body, about my physical attractiveness...
It's all a perverse sort of game. Somewhere it originates with systems-control models and has sort of iterated upon itself for centuries to produce some kind of mystical fitting-in dance which mostly involves needing to trample someone. Society wants you to be concerned with all of that so that you don't go off and do anything actually useful.
women's sexuality and physicality ... gets treated as a public commodity to be traded...
I have the sudden mental image of something vaguely resembling a Wall Street Trading Floor, with various women/values passing by on large ticker-tape screens, shares or portions of various women up for quick-trade, sale, or long-term investment. Though it seems kind of silly at first, I sadly don't think this image is all that far from some people's ideals.
From:
Re: Part2
Dealing with that sort of thing leaves me with this weird split-response feeling -- where I'm profoundly sad that that is the coping mechanism she feels she needs to have, that her life is of the sort where that's reasonable armour to have picked up -- and at the same time am outraged that it came anywhere near me, especially when I was vulnerable and exposed.
Typically I find that those women who attempt to model themselves after societally standard concepts of "real woman" actually move quite quickly into the "cheap plastic fake" category.
I don't remember the context that provoked it in specific, though I'm sure it was in the general case of 'mainstream expectations of stuff are utterly broken', but in my quotes file is this from
From:
Re: Part2
Heh. Your quoting that reminds me of an exchange one of my (female) friends had with one of my (male) acquaintances at a party recently, with a group of people many of whom are involved in the local poly community. In the process of introducing herself to him, she was explaining how we'd come to know the host, which involved the fact that I'd been spending the afternoon working at her house recently -- to which his reply was, "Oh, I didn't know Brooks was one of your partners."
From:
Part 3
Why wouldn't it? They're Sub-cultures, meaning that they're still fully immersed in their originating points, and any baggage that isn't renegotiated is by default carried along.
I think I was talking with
And I wind up feeling like a target, a lot of the time.
Of course. It's because you're different, so that gives others something to step on to prove that their model is acceptable. It doesn't mean you're alone. *hug* My sexuality isn't owned by a single man,
I'd assert that your sexuality isn't owned by anyone but yourself. You can then share it with whom you want.
That's probably the scary bit for many of the control-through-sexuality groups, the truth that sexuality can't be taken from someone without taking their mind, and the fear that they might not get it all. That's also attempts at heavy control over such things cause so much mental damage.
"But if someone only wants this because of the patriarchy/the abuse/the this, that, and the other, does that mean that 'this' is bad? If that person gets better, should that mean they stop doing 'this'?"
I don't think such questions can be easily answered in general statements. It often depends on what "this" is. The originating point of it is certainly bad, so it then moves from motivations. Is "this" a point of hiding from the thing? Is it bonding the person to it and preventing them from moving on to just accept that the (whatever) happened/is, and will be part of them, but doesn't need to be a controlling part? Is "this" in other ways harmful, or simply something that came up due to prior situations and is now something that the person prefers?
I'd use the bangs model for an example - having them short because you like them that way is fine. Having them short because you fear the problems that having them long once caused means that those problems will one day need to be handled and resolved. The thing itself matters less than the motivation behind it.
Pro-sex/anti-sex.
As far as I can tell, everything mentioned in this category falls into the domain of people who have problems with sex because they're insecure about themselves.
The confounding of 'submissive' with 'no personality or desires of their own'
Tell them to get a houseplant. After they kill off several from over watering they might begin to learn that every living thing has desires and needs of their own. If they don't though, at least they're only hurting houseplants, which tend not to complain too much.
I caught bits of the whole feminist blowjob frothing
I think this evokes a slightly different image than you had in mind...
they're grounded in this essential belief that women's sexuality is owned by external forces again
Probably. To realize that it's an internal item of selfhood and not some imposed structure would mean that they were responsible for it. In general people avoid taking responsibility for anything when they can avoid it. This annoys me and points to a significant failing in current society.
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I went through a period of "I won't do that because it's popular". When I was ... I got over it by the time I was fourteen. Now I knee-jerk reject popular things because they're new. ;)
I'd assert that your sexuality isn't owned by anyone but yourself. You can then share it with whom you want.
That's the perspective I tend to come from. Though as noted I feel the need to defend/protect that position fairly vigilantly, because while it's where I default to philosophically, I don't always get there in actual cognitions.
I don't think such questions can be easily answered in general statements. It often depends on what "this" is. The originating point of it is certainly bad, so it then moves from motivations. Is "this" a point of hiding from the thing? Is it bonding the person to it and preventing them from moving on to just accept that the (whatever) happened/is, and will be part of them, but doesn't need to be a controlling part? Is "this" in other ways harmful, or simply something that came up due to prior situations and is now something that the person prefers?
There are a number of traits that some people have in their heads as only happening as a result of abuse/damage -- plurality, kink, polyamory are three that I've run into personally. Some people get all political about ending the results as necessarily part of dealing with the damage. This stuff makes me ... itchy.
I know a couple of plurals with the standard trauma-development model whose tack on that is, 'Yes, that's why there's a plural system here. We're over the trauma and have dealt with it, would you stop trying to make us go away?'
Then there was the guy who was coming up with elaborate abuse fantasies to explain why I was poly ... I don't think he was getting off on it except as political fetish, but it gave me the same creepiness problem.
The hair thing I like this way. But I react really weirdly, at least internally, to the idea of changing it *back*.
Tell them to get a houseplant. After they kill off several from over watering they might begin to learn that every living thing has desires and needs of their own. If they don't though, at least they're only hurting houseplants, which tend not to complain too much.
Thus do we return to houseplants of Gor.
I caught bits of the whole feminist blowjob frothing
I think this evokes a slightly different image than you had in mind...
*rereads* No, no, it really was that messy. All over everything.
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Sort of tangential rambling...
I've had a similar thing about shaving my legs / armpits. I was chastised about it in middle school by another girl (I don't even remember who it was anymore, but one of the more popular ones) and it stayed with me for years. It was either do it to conform to public opinion and be acceptable (which I did for years, or hid that I didn't), or not do it so that I specifically -didn't- conform and showed it...
Now I generally don't do it because I'm too lazy to want to maintain it and don't like the feel of the hair growing out. :} I do shave (or whatever) every once in a while, but I've tried to make sure that I'm doing it or not because -I- want to (or I might on request, if made nicely enough, but -not- as coercion), not as a reaction to society in either direction. And by this point, that's mostly become second nature.
I've always been really sensitive about being societally correct or whatever - I specifically remember sitting in the car crying hysterically and refusing to go perform in a concert because I didn't think my clothing was right. I've tried really, really hard to get over it at least to some point, but it's difficult. Now this was public appearance, not sexuality specifically (they can be intertwined, and often are for females, although I happily didn't have the experiences you did), but they're both very highly monitored and enforced by societies.
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And I'm sure that whoever you go down on in your fit of Un-PCness appreciates that.
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Which bothers me.
If I'm gonna do that, I want to do it because it's hot. Not because it pisses off morons on the intarweb.
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It's not like they'd know that you're not any more than they'd know that you're not a large, slovenly, 58-year-old male deacon.
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HOwever, I don't know hw to artculate it, but I am sufficiently tipsy to sort of gesticulate in its vague direction.
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Boys will be boys.
/em goes into a frothing, incoherent rage.
Ummm, yeah. If anyone ever tries to use "boys will be boys" as an excuse for *anything*, in my hearing, I will string them up by their genitals. And then disavow all responsibility for it, because I'm a boy, and boys will be boys.
I have an intense hatred for that particular bit of tripe. I have my own stories about the damage done to me when I was small, and my cries for help fell on deaf ears.
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I am aware that sometimes, men want to own my sexuality, and I'm like "how are you gonna?" but I had no clue other women were actually that seriously affected by other people's beliefs and desires about them.
I suspect I'm better off this way.
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The thing that blows my mind about the blowjob war is the number of people who presume that the default is that people are modelling their sex lives on porn.
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I suspect you had a saner social context as a child than I did when I was a child, with enough healthy social interaction that you rarely had to deal with unhealthy dynamics as part of basic social sustenance processes.
Well, with respect to sex, certainly, yes. But I have a bunch of other problems as a an adult (social anxiety, emotional inhibition, isolation) which seem pretty closely related to lack of proper social sustenance as a child.
I'm not trying to get into a "my childhood was worse than yours" war, I'm just pointing out that somehow sex has always been separate for me from a lot of other social crap. And I don't know why that is, or conversely (how I experience it) why other women's sexuality is so affected by e.g. teenage boys' treatment of them.
The thing that blows my mind about the blowjob war is the number of people who presume that the default is that people are modelling their sex lives on porn.
It both does and doesn't, for me. It does, in terms of my own sexuality, but it doesn't, in terms of my experience of how lacking in self-confidence and information most people are about sex. Sadly, I think porn is the closest thing to authoritative information many people have.
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