[Martian anthropology] On Womanness Again

[kiya]

It seems to have come around on the gee-tar again, this thing -- the experience of being a woman, what women are like, expectations based on gender. (A couple separate places on LJ, alt.poly, elsewhere. As far as I can tell, the group semiconsciousness of the internet throws the subject up every so often, sort of like the Mammoth Check.)

What's been striking me so much about it this time -- from when it came out in the Pit on the SDMB a little ahead of the pack -- is how much of it strikes me as cultural. Several people cited sitcoms as evidence that people are really like that (for varying forms of "like that"). Sitcoms. And commercials. Not exactly what I think of as being the high end of character plausibility, that. Caricature, sure, but not character plausibility.

Which leads into my thoughts about that sort of thing as enforcing norms rather than describing them. Which is sort of tangential. But worth mentioning anyway.


I have to come to the conclusion that a lot of these mainstream things about how-people-are and I are oil and water to each other, that we can carry on fundamentally oblivious of each other's existence. Because a lot of the encoding that people discuss is alien to me. (I commented to teinedreugan a while back that reading the SDMB is my major source of awareness of mainstream culture. This was during one of those men/women threads. . .) It not only isn't how I function, it's not something that most of the people I know seem to use on a regular basis. (Though I know people who do mainstream-gendered things as a hobby. Sometimes I'm one of them.)

One of the threads that went into getting me off on this was a post about how women are expected to be a size six, more or less, and how the enforcement of this conformity ideal is exceptionally damaging. (I summarise the summary here.) And one of the sources of this ideal is listed as fashion magazines. One of the people commenting on this pointed out that this vector only transmits to those people who read the things. (As opposed to people whose primary exposure to them is desperately needing something to read in supermarket checkout lines.)

I'm trying to remember the sort of periodicals that came into the house when I was a kid, trying to get a sense of what was normal. When I was a kid I got Ranger Rick and Cricket and, I think, Highlights; I remember very little about them. We subscribed to Science News and Sky and Telescope; I'm not sure if we subscribed to National Geographic or not, but there were a whole bunch of them around. We got catalogues -- things like the Sears catalog, and also Signals, and some other things. I remember going through them and wanting interesting tinted crystal glasses and duck egg incubators, which is probably indicative of a lot. No cultural expectation of fashion rags, y'know?

I got given a subscription to YM when I was fourteen or so. I flipped through them a few times and then ignored them until the subscription ran out -- that stuff was already alien to me, being all full of makeup and fashion and stuff. (I went through a period where popularity was sufficient reason for me to reject things; I had mostly grown out of it by then.) It was all so effortful, and effortful without a payoff that I could perceive. I think I understand now that the effort was supposed to lead to look-like-the-girls-in-the-magazines, but that was pretty much beyond my understanding at the time. (As far as I can reconstruct, it simply never occurred to me; there was all this information out there about how to improve one's makeup skills, but none on why one would find this more useful to know than how to play Eleanor Rigby on the piano or, for that matter, hatching duck eggs in an incubator. I mean, knowing how to hatch duck eggs means there are ducks. Priorities!)

The makeup that existed as a default in my family was my mother's foundation to cover her I-think-rosacea. That isn't terribly, y'know, glamourous and exciting, and since I didn't have a similar condition that I wanted to address, it didn't occur to me that there were skills there I might want. She would do a little other stuff for special occasions like gallery openings. (Here is where I put in an interjection: I hated gallery openings. They were long and full of grown-ups talking about things that didn't interest me and far too often they either didn't have any food at all or didn't have any interesting snacks. I suspect this of being a mild component of my allergy to art galleries.) When I was in my mid-teens, she had a Mary Kay rep or some such come over to do makeup settings, and we both did that, and it was an Amusing Thing To Do Once, but it still didn't inspire in me any urge to do that sort of thing on a regular basis. Again, hobby-level. (Wandering back to my thoughts about getting erispope to give me girliness lessons.)

So somewhere I missed whatever cultural hook was supposed to set this behaviour -- my family's culture didn't strongly encourage it, and I didn't get whatever was supposed to catch the stragglers in the rest of the world. I know people who have the skills, but not actively using them to the level that's up to the mainstream joke of the woman who spends hours a day on it; a hobby. Hell, my major cosmetic thing (dyeing my hair) has the net effect of reducing the amount of time I have to spend on it, because it makes the hair that much more manageable.

Either the mainstream culture isn't strong enough to enforce this sort of thing on its own in the absence of reinforcement from the family, or I'm just that oblivious. I give it fifty-fifty, huh?

I go into that one in detail because there's way too much that's like that with me and "how women are". Especially as, in the majority of cases, the women I actually know don't fit the mould -- because most of the people I know and spend a lot of time with are geek-gendered to a greater or lesser extent, and that and mainstream gendering don't seem to coexist much.

. . . I just realised that of the people I know who are roughly my age and have small children, I think all but one of them have the husband as primary caregiver . . . and I don't know what my sister-in-law does. I live in a pocket reality. See?

I wind up wondering where these women-are-likes come from. It's where I get that oil-and-water theory, because they must exist somewhere, even if in social circles so different from mine that I never encounter them -- otherwise there wouldn't be so many people positing them, right? Talking about their traits. Asking how to deal with them. Publishing books about how they think.

The women I know aren't like that; I'm pretty sure they're real women who really exist.

I'm pretty sure I'm a real woman, too. If I'm not, whoever issued me this breast pain is in for some serious hardware compatibility lectures as soon as I find my fucking receipt.


There's a Feri-related exercise I'm toying with on and off in my head lately -- under what circumstances do I feel more female? Less female? More male? Less male? It's an interesting gedankenthingy.

Comments

[phantom_wolfboy]

There is something in this, I think, that speaks to Taliesin's nattering on alt.polyamory about "Core Programming", but I do not see exactly what yet.

[redbird]

This also reminds me of papersky's comment (and I don't remember if it was on LJ or alt.poly) that her gender presentation is "this is a valid way to be female."

[hobbitblue.livejournal.com]

I don't fit in with many of the stereotypes of how women should be (and some are exactly like that, in greater or lesser ways) but I'm happy to be me and my own take on gender is just as valid. I think the magazine and culture problem is that a lot of people aren't secure in who they are and are looking for ideas and validation, "how do I be a woman" and when they look, at least superficially, all they see is Vogue and Cosmo and the women on tv ads or in sitcoms. And I get the impression that taking the next step, the "well, that's *not* me, who am I then?" is much, much harder for some, and so they never take it, or don't even realise they can.

Of course, a lot of women like the woman stereotype, enjoy make-up and fashion and being the perfect size and concerned with homemaking etc, and find Bridget Jones a recognisable role model.

[larksdream]

It was all so effortful, and effortful without a payoff that I could perceive.

My attitude exactly. I do minimal makeup-- some eyeliner, maybe some foundation under my eyes & light blush if I need to look like I've slept ;-) --and that's exactly enough that I get results that please me with a time committment that is acceptably small. But even that I only started a few years ago.

I get so annoyed when taller women tell me how "lucky" I am to be short, because apparently this means you can wear high heels-- rejoice!-- but if you're tall you can't, because then you might be taller than your Obligatory Male Escort and that would be Bad. I think that's how it goes. Alas, am wasting my good fortune as have never worn high heels. :-P

[kiya]

*contemplating what a larksdream might do with high heels*
I can see it. But only with the red and black bustier. ;)

A girl I knew at RM -- frosh when we were juniors -- was pretty tall, like five-eleven or something. And she was obsessed with that notion. Only boys who were taller than she was would do -- there were two in the IB in her grade -- and they had to be enough taller that she could wear heels. She would go on and on about this.

Eventually her best friend finally snapped, leaned over the bus seat behind her, and said, "Caitlin? I wish I had your problems."

[larksdream]

I can see it. But only with the red and black bustier. ;)

LOL. I won't deny I look pretty good in them, mostly because my legs are relatively short and the heels stretch them out nicely. But, you know, gee, have nicer looking legs and knee and back problems, or walk around in sneakers and be healthy, such a choice. :P (Of course, I'd rather be barefoot. Pass the granola, would you? *g*)

[ninevrise.livejournal.com]

"Girls" and "boys" as categories are tremendously confusing things. I've never really got why anyone would want to fit into those categories *as a lifestyle,* and I think that's probably for the best.

However, to answer your makeup example: I do like makeup. I like nailpolish, and eyeshadow, and every now and then I even bother to [gasp] curl my eyelashes. But when I do it, I'm not doing it for other people, so much? I ask myself "what color do I feel like wearing today!" and I have fun with it and it's like a little craft I can carry around on my face. Little pots of color! Glitter! I've been known to say nailpolish is like candy on your nails; I think eyemakeup is like candy on your [my] face. And when I really go all out, there's almost a camp aspect to it - a make-believe way that it gets me to feel.

So. I like makeup, I wear it a lot, I *don't* spend hours on it each day (more like 3 minutes); I'm not sure how much my reasons for wearing it intersect with the general culture's. When I get very dressed up, I feel like I'm playing at "being a woman," in such a way that I control it? It's something a little overblown and glamourous - not an everyday way of life. Everyday is more "okay, I'm female, what of it?" I like makeup and guitars and martial arts and power tools, and I don't see my own use of any of these things as slotting in neatly to any societal gender constructs.

.. and don't get me started on clothing. Fabrics! Drapey things! Colors! Velvets and silks and linens, mmmmm! So much men's clothing is so *boring,* it's really a shame.

[kiya]

I've been thinking of learning enough to be able to do the thing as a toy -- camp is a good way of thinking about how I've been looking at, especially with the style I want to try to do. But it's explicitly coming at it as the candy, y'know?

Drapey things are the -best-.

Okay, I need to use the femme icon for this comment. :}

[leanne-opaskar.livejournal.com]

*reads over the post*

*reads over it again*

I don't know. My childhood was rather similar ... though my reading material came from Scholastic Books instead of magazines. When I was a teen, my folks got me a subscription to Seventeen, and after I told them it was all ads and makeup and boring, they got me a susbscription to Smithsonian instead.

I personally find makeup uncomfortable. It's itchy, I always worry that I'm going to make a mess on someone by hugging them, and eye makeup bothers my eyes. Presumably this is partially because I wear it so rarely. I think the last time I wore makeup was at my wedding!

I have gendered hobbies from both sides of the gender line. Let me cook, sew, and spruce up the house ... but damn it, you'd better let me game (gaming is a gendered hobby, particularly miniatures) and play hockey, too!

Heh ... when I went to quilt camp with my mom, I had a real good time, but by the third day I was seriously suffering from lack of testosterone. (: It was weird. I never felt that way at Wellesley.

I don't really think of myself as a particular gender most of the time. It's not part of my self-concept. Which may be why I get called male on random occasions. (: It's stopped bothering me. I find it amusing. I suspect that the deity that keeps an eye on me finds it amusing, too.

The only things that really stick out to me are a) when guys use the word "girl" or "grandma" or whatever as an insult, and that'll get me roaring and b) when I have to dress up, and get to bitch about having to have way too many clothes in my closet and still have nothing to wear because society is so damn picky about what women can wear to particular events.

[elf]

Part of me thinks our culture has to divide gender concepts by makeup and hobbies and clothing, because if they didn't, they'd have to realize that the differences are about sex. And, in general, we (they?) would much rather deal with "women are the ones who wear eyeshadow; men are the ones who wear heavy boots" than "women are the ones who get wet; men are the ones who get hard."

I have no idea why I didn't pick up on the makeup-and-hairspray thing. I was exposed; I was somewhat interested (it certainly seemed like a *fun* thing to learn, and we all want to be pretty, right?), but it never connected as important. Or maybe just wasn't worth giving up reading time to learn.

In Jr. High I was even kind-of "adopted" by a couple of the popular girls, who decided I was nice & they'd teach me to, umm, do whatever it is they thought girls do. Hang out in the sun & pretend to get tanned. Wear trendy clothes. Apply eyeshadow without looking like a raccoon; apply nail polish without leaving red smears on the fingers.

So now I can co-ordinate my tie-dyes & leather skirts, apply glitter to my upper eyelids without smearing it, and put a black strip on green nails without getting any on my fingertips. Somehow, I don't think that's what they had in mind.

[mindways]

Part of me thinks our culture has to divide gender concepts by makeup and hobbies and clothing, because if they didn't, they'd have to realize that the differences are about sex.

Hmm, I could see this. The vast majority of the times I consciously
self-identify as "male" have to do with either sex or other physical
differences such as beard trimming.

[oneironaut.livejournal.com]

I mean, knowing how to hatch duck eggs means there are ducks. Priorities!

Tiny Darkhawk so cute.

[undauntra.livejournal.com]

Datum. I've been pretty strongly geek-gendered all my life. The enculturation I got came mainly from fantasy and science fiction books; I ended up with the concept that "Girls, boys, and men all get to have adventures. Women don't." As a result, I was perfectly happy being a girl and had vague ambitions of becoming a man when I grew up.

Then I grew up. Some minor gender dysphoria issues, some whacked-out relationships - you know, pretty much the usual deal. I've started wearing eye makeup on special occasions, for a month and a half now. Ever since Halloween, in other words - when I tried putting some makeup on for my costume, and discovered that eyeliner pencils are just plain FUN!

[boojum.livejournal.com]

One of my current goals is to find more people who don't fit most of "what people are supposed to be" gender stereotypes, because I'm more comfortable around them and I know so few of them locally. My main social/professional interests are strongly gendered (computers, knitting/spinning) and I'm often the one person in the group who doesn't fit the gender pattern. The public transit I take and streets I walk down are full of women-are-likes and men-are-likes. Every day, it seems like, the knitting livejournal community has a post asking for help in making some piece of clothing masculine enough, because to do otherwise would be a terrible insult to the man or boy receiving it.

I've lived in a few social settings where this wasn't true. I'd love to find one again. I haven't generally lived in settings that are as extremely gender-role thou-shalt'd as advertising, but I've now had several conversations where I've baffled and offended a woman by suggesting that her husband was capable of doing laundry. I haven't figured out yet what the hell's even up with that.

[frozencapybara.livejournal.com]

Hi! I also read the knitting community, and I had to comment:

Every day, it seems like, the knitting livejournal community has a post asking for help in making some piece of clothing masculine enough, because to do otherwise would be a terrible insult to the man or boy receiving it.

I've noticed that too, and oh, how I hate that those posts. They drive me up the wall, particularly since my partner, who happens to be male, is continually ranting about the lack of color and patterns in mens' fashion these days. I'm always tempted to respond with something like "Well, why don't you ASK him? Men aren't all identical!" but the I suspect it wouldn't be taken kindly. :P

[sstaten.livejournal.com]

Honestly, considering what I used to see in high school and college, your lack of makeup experience is an advantage. Unless you plan on working in masonry or drywall, Far too many girls seem to think makeup musr be applied with a trowel.

And frankly a layer of plaster or concrete over the face doesn't really strike me as attractive (or comfortable).

[ailbhe]

I feel immensely feminine and womanly, all the time. And all the online tests and self-help books tell me I'm a man.

I really am beginning to be comfortable with the assertion that it *is* feminine, because I'm female and I'm doing it. Yo.