Navigating the Intermediate Period

[kiya]

A while back I had a conversation with vectorvillain about religion, which is, I suppose, one of the subjects that he and I talk about a fair amount when he's findable.

One of the comments he made was about something he called the Time of Prophets, the initial stages in the development of a movement, a religion. Paganism as a whole is still in its Time of Prophets, its point when individual personalities are shaping the face of what exists, where the founders of religions are still in their breathing days, where personal convictions and personal disagreements can lead to the founding of entire religions as a result of taking one's ball and going home.

It's an interesting time to be living in. In sort of the traditional curse sense.

I don't like this sort of interesting time, really; it leaves me feeling like I'm in the middle of some catastrophic literature. The natural order is upturned and all, nothing's established, nothing's stable. The raw order isn't merely ripped up; it doesn't exist yet, it hasn't even been built. I don't like it; I'm far too conservative of ba for this sort of interesting, this sort of transformational period.

The raw energy of creation, of defining the scope of the possible with the words we speak and write today, is ripping loose and through the extended pagan movement. Witness disputes about what 'Wicca' means: the shape of the word is being flexed by people, some of them people who don't even know how much their words can bend things. The energy is raw, very raw in some places, unconstrained; it makes new forms and rips them apart again. The forms that are shaped today and built well, the ones that will survive, have the potential to reach far into the future.

It's an amazing thing, to think that today's research, today's insights, today's connections, today's stories told might cascade out like that. It's terrifying. Djet is scary; it's so big. I can't live responsibly in neheh without recognising, though, that djet comes out of neheh's iterations, and in times of transformation, in intermediate periods, order is not merely maintained, it is defined.

It fills me with awe, awe complete with the oft-forgotten layers of fear.

I think the world probably needs more awe at djet.

What was it tnh says? "We live in extremely interesting ancient times"?

Comments

[rainfallsautumn.livejournal.com]

Fascinating entry, my thoughts are going off in a dozen different directions.

-it will have implications for the future if it makes it that far. The fascination that people have had and will continue to have with ancient Gods argues in favor of a long-term Pagan influence; the way that the movement in general is conducting itself argues against it. History is littered with the shells of neat ideas that burnt themselves out, and I do question whether any permutation of Paganism will escape this fate. It won't if people continue to treat it as convenience food. There's a wide space between making one's religion one's life and barely letting it *into* your life, and I feel like that space is rather sparsely populated for as large as it is-- and that goes for *most* American religion, not just Paganism.

-what really unnerves me about this Time of Prophets is the role of newcomers. Newbies to Pagan religions have both too much power and too little, IMO. On one hand, everyone seems equally qualified to start a new tradition, or even a new religion, and like you said, that's an actual option for a disaffected newbie. On the other hand, there are a lot of "veterans" of less-than-a-decade's vintage who would argue without a hint of irony that newbies have no right to question, that the leaders are all-wise and their words should be accepted without reservation. Missing is a sense of history and a slow integration of newcomers which emphasize how they fit into timeline while allowing them to figure out how the faith fits into their *own* internal map. I agree, I also am "conservative of ba," I feel a bit (and often a lot) adrift by this lack of timeline, by the speed at which one goes from rank novice to "elder" or leader. I hope this makes sense because I'm not sure how much better I can explain it, but: teachers are many, mentors are few.

Anyway, much to think on. Thank you. *bow*

[kiya]

I don't know if it will survive extensively, but I think there will probably be descendents of the ideas of today, at a bare minimum. Whether we'd recognise the names or the things that get made of them I don't know.

What really frightens me is that it's the conservative-souled, the ones who don't thrive on the infinitude of possibility where raw chaos-creation (Nun chaos) is seeping in, who are the ones who are most likely to sit there and pin the sucker down. And I'm here, with a half-formulated diatribe on theological scholarship, and with the book the jackal boys told me to write, and it scares the holy fuck out of me.

Because I want it pinned down. And the ripple effect has a murderous bloody undertow. Those are some big damn waves. Maybe nothing comes of pinning my spot down, it's a little tiny inlet, it doesn't touch more than a few immediate lives, the ocean shifts, it dries up eventually. But maybe not. Y'know?

Maybe I need to go down to the beach and talk to the ocean. At night, though, not for the singing up the sun ritual for Wep Rompet.

[elynne.livejournal.com]

... Djhwty has informed me that the book I picked up a while back is not acceptable as a source of information about Him and His ways. He has not yet pointed me in another direction (so far as I understand) to find this information. *sigh*

It doesn't help that I'm afraid to bring up my spiritual beliefs to pretty much any organized group of practitioners who might have useful information. Djhwty spoke to me, but so did Kuan Yin; and I won't choose one or the other when they've both shown me how well they get along. They aren't arguing... but I suspect that most living Egyptian practitioners would. :/ So I continue to make it up as I go along.

... feh. *sigh*

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

This is most interesting; would you mind if I linked to it from my own journal?

[kiya]

*crawls back online due to the beneficience of keshwyn lending me a connection*

Sure thing, feel free.

[lysana.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who seems to be shuffling toward being a "prophet," you're damn right. Putting ourselves out there and hoping it takes. Praying it doesn't blow up too badly in our faces while knowing it will. Wishing that enough people who hear it will understand it enough to carry it forward. Trying not to get a swelled head but wanting to be respected for the work we're doing. It's terrifying.

I also see signs of it continuing, though. I know second-generation Norsefolk, and I'm fairly sure there will be third-generation ones if there aren't already. Some Celtic folk are getting to that stage, too, but we have less organization and haven't been around as a neopagan option for as long.

[jenny_evergreen]

"Putting ourselves out there and hoping it takes. Praying it doesn't blow up too badly in our faces while knowing it will. Wishing that enough people who hear it will understand it enough to carry it forward. Trying not to get a swelled head but wanting to be respected for the work we're doing. It's terrifying."

At least you have an accurate grasp of what you're getting into, speaking as someone who shuffled all the way to "prophet", albeit not under the pagan banner. *wry*

what a wonderful entry

[nemtetsemnewty.livejournal.com]

Hotep: I have added you a long time ago and this maybe among the few times I have commented on something you have written.

I want to thank you for writing much that you do. I would say that about 95% of the time or more our views and perspectives are in sync.

Never so much as with the posting of this entry. You managed to express with a economy of words everything I have been feeling for a very long time. If this is the time of the prophets, I want no part of a religion that is going through such an experience. Period.

Its much like living in a construction zone during a time when 15 architects all are jockeying with each other for position of Head architect and doing this by having all pre-existing work
on the foundation torn assunder as they attempt to have their conception of what the foundation 'should be' laid out. It's a time when one would have to beware of falling beams
and 2x4s....be they cosmic, psychological, theological or theurgological.

I don't handle such realities well.

When religious theologies flipflop every 4 to 6 months shifting between 90 and 180 degrees with each flip, I have to wonder if

1) theological hypocrits are at the helm

or

2) anyone is at the helm

3) the people who are at the helm have a clear Idea of what they actually believe or worse
have a clear idea of what the religion they head does stand for and represent.

I know that religious perspectives change over spans of time, but goodness gracious, let that span of time be longer then periods between 3 months to 3 years.

Thanks for writing this again

Huggles
Nemtetsemnewty


T

Re: what a wonderful entry

[kiya]

Thank you for your kind words.

I think Egyptian recon has a much more difficult time of it than a lot of other portions of modern paganism -- partly because it's comparatively young (on the fifteen-twenty years scale, rather than Asatru's forty-fifty years and Wicca's seventy or so), and also because, unlike more tribal reconstructions, the basic presumptions of the structure have a fair amount of heirarchy bound up in them. So the question of "Who's in charge and how do we sort that out" is a lot more fraught in Kemetic circles than it is in a system where there's a built-in set of "So that's how you do it in your clan/city/tribe . . ."

The entire question of authority and heirarchy is a really touchy one, the need for the helm. I remember iced_spice commenting a while back that she expected Kemetic stuff to have broken into a bunch of more or less independent groups at some point in the future, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, but I'm not so sure how well that would fall under 'recon', because it's breaking the idea of central heirarchy and thus the unity of the Two Lands.

It's a real question, as the man said.